Time Markers:
(0:54) What Could Make Prison Visits Easier?
(5:06) Breaking Rules as a Newbie
(9:17) Visiting is Tough but Typically Good for Everyone
(11:55) Advice for First Time Visitors
(16:39) Saying Goodbye
(18:50) Facility Rules Vary
(21:09) What Has Your Experience Been?
Time Markers:
(0:54) What Could Make Prison Visits Easier?
(5:06) Breaking Rules as a Newbie
(9:17) Visiting is Tough but Typically Good for Everyone
(11:55) Advice for First Time Visitors
(16:39) Saying Goodbye
(18:50) Facility Rules Vary
(21:09) What Has Your Experience Been?
Time Markers:
(0:54) What Could Make Prison Visits Easier?
(5:06) Breaking Rules as a Newbie
(9:17) Visiting is Tough but Typically Good for Everyone
(11:55) Advice for First Time Visitors
(16:39) Saying Goodbye
(18:50) Facility Rules Vary
(21:09) What Has Your Experience Been?
Welcome to the PrisonCare Podcast!
I’m Sabrina Justison, founder of PrisonCare.org, equipping compassionate people to support the often-invisible people groups who make up a prison neighborhood - the inmate residents, correctional officers, staff, administration, and the families of all of these folks.
Join me for this week’s episode, and be encouraged to think, care, and respond as we explore the challenges facing prison neighborhoods everywhere.
Let’s support positive prison culture from the outside, because EVERYone on the inside matters.
Hello friends. Welcome to part 2 of Fred visits prison. If you have not listened to the first half of this organic conversation between my husband and me, then you probably want to go back one episode and start at the beginning of the conversation with us. There was just enough there that I had to break it into two episodes and so we are starting in the middle of a convo.
So Fred has been out to visit J, maybe 10 times, something like that. Neither of us can really come up with an accurate number because this is a cross-country trip for us when we go to visit and so we schedule sometimes, two sometimes three days of visits for while we’re they’re. Kind of have to make it worth the big trip, you know? So we get as much time with J as we can. So yeah, we really are not positive exactly how many times, but probably about about 10 times, something like that. And so that's a number of experiences.
And I had been several times by myself before Fred made his first visit to the prison. So I think that that was helpful to him. You know, it's funny I kind of have a dream. My many, many PrisonCare dreams, but I have a dream of someday there being a buddy program, where people making their first visit to a prison after their loved one has been sentenced could sign up for a buddy who would just walk them through getting there, getting in, getting settled, learning the rules at that particular facility. I know. It’s a big dream but it could happen. It could happen. And I think it would make it better for everybody for the visitors, for the staff, and for the residents, if people weren't not so uneasy coming in to visit. And if staff didn't have to be the ones explaining all the nuances of the rules and constantly correcting people. You know, they could, they could save some of that trouble with the buddy system, right? Isn't that a cool idea? I love that idea.
I also love the idea of helping fund people's vending machine purchases because there are families who are really struggling financially who come in there with little kids and those little kids have to sit there and boy to have some little chocolate chip cookies to snack on or something makes that visit a whole lot easier for those little people. So that's another dream. I would love to be able to help people get snacks for during their visit when they are financially unable to pay the overpriced vending machine prices.
So anyway, we're going to jump into my conversation with Fred right in the middle of it. And we were just talking about the visitation staff and the assumptions that we had before we had spent much time around them.
Sabrina: That, that was one thing. That surprised me. The first few times I visited, I went in with this assumption that I think was wrong for the most part, but going in thinking the staff are angry at me for coming to visit because they… like guilt by association, you know? My kid did something horrible, therefore, they think I'm a horrible person before I even got out of my car and they're really mad that I'm here. And so I went in like assuming that everybody was glaring at my back and mumbling under their breath, horrible things about me, you know? Just a little paranoid, perhaps. But I've come to find out through research and then by behaving this way now I see it in my experience too that the staff are glad people come visit. It's a hassle for them. It's somebody's full time job to be the visitation sergeant and you have to have, you know, it's a lot of work, but prisons are safer when people visit them. People who are incarcerated, who don't get visits are much more likely to be behavior problems than people who do get visits.
Fred: Exactly, I agree with that. And it's funny now that I've been there, you know, I guess a dozen times or how many it's been. I notice the newbies that come in and, you know, they break little rules and they kind of get yelled at and I feel so sorry for them.
S: The new visitors?
F: New visitors, the newbies, new visitors. Yeah. And you want to yell to them, “Hey, don’t do that.”
S: And we have managed a few times just in tiny little ways to like help somebody out. And the first time I went somebody helped me out and then I ended up meeting her a year later and chatting with her. But yeah, you come in and you don't know and it's not like all the rules are posted on the wall and it takes a little while to figure out. Like you come in and there's one red chair… horrible plastic chairs, incredibly uncomfortable plastic chairs. There's one red, one at the table and it has visit written in big letters across the back of it. And then there's a gray plastic chair. So, first time I walked in, I'm like, oh, so, the chair that says visit is for the visitor. So I sat down and then they were like, “Uh uh uh, you can't sit in the red chair. You have to sit in the gray chair. The red chairs for the…” Okay, so it's perfectly reasonable but like it wasn't obvious and I was trying to follow the rules and it's labeled visit and I'm here on a visit so I thought I should sit in it. But stuff like that, like you get so embarrassed because it is intimidating like you're in this place where you just feel like yeah eyes are on you all the time. So yeah. It's um it's, it's hard because you sort of want to help other people and you're not supposed to talk to other people.
F: The other one is the dress code. You can't wear certain clothes and you don't know. And you see people like my stepson, he had to, he went to visit and he came in, with just a plain white t-shirt and you can’t and they said, “you can't come in.” He had to leave and drive down to Walmart, which was about 20 miles away and grab another shirt or something. Shoes. What was it? Also, he had boots on or something. He wasn’t allowed to wear boots. I don’t… I forget what it was.
S: He wore his boots and he didn't think about the fact that they were work issued boots and so they had steel toes.
F: Oh yeah.
S: So yeah, if he thought about it, he would have known that steel-toed shoes were not okay. But he just, he was just thinking like it's just his work shoes.
F: Did he go buy a pair of sneakers and a…
S: And a different color shirt. Yeah, it's cool. I've gotten a new idea that I'm going to start doing from now on. I got this from Carol and Gene Kent at a cool prison ministry. If you are not familiar with it, check it out, speakupforhope.org. But when they go to visit their son, they always carry new black t-shirts in their car and then if there's anybody who comes in for a visit… because like a lot of times young women will come in and not realize that you can't wear anything sleeveless. You have to have at least t-shirt length sleeves and it's you know it'll be hot summertime and they'll come in in a perfectly modest you know not like a cami or something but like a perfectly… but a sleeveless top and they'll be turned away. So anyway the Kents carry plain t-shirts, plain black t-shirts in their car and they'll give them to somebody so they don't have to drive to Walmart to buy stuff. So I'm going to start doing that. I'm going to carry PrisonCare t-shirts though so people can have a shirt on.
F: That’s right. They’re black.
S: They are black. Yeah. What do you feel like the impact is on me? Like I go more often than you do, so totally by myself sometimes. Sometimes we take trips together, whatever. It is emotionally complicated for me, right? Like you're a very reserved person emotionally. You don’t… I wear my heart on my sleeve, so it's very obvious how I'm feeling and what… Do you think that being able to go and visit him is in a general sense good for me, or do you think it is like super hard on me or?
F: No… Most of the time I would think it’s good for you to do it but I think there's other times it's hard for you and I think but I also It might be hard and it… you might be grieving a little bit after you leave. But I think it's all positive. So in that sense, I think it’s a… does your heart good.
S: I agree. That’s that's how I feel about it but I've never quite… I've never asked you that before. I've never been sure whether you're looking at it going, “Sabrina this is beating you down way more than you think it is.” You know, I feel like it's something hard that I do that when I'm done, it was tiring emotionally, but it like, filled up something inside me that gets empty when I haven't seen him for a long time. And yeah. And I know it's it's good for him but what's funny is it's also hard for him. He typically has at least 48 hours after a visit where he is severely depressed. And, like sometimes barely functional, you know. And it's easier now that he knows that's going to happen, like he anticipates it and he's ready for it. But yeah, the saying goodbye thing is really tough, it’s really tough and it's a little bit different for us because we live so far away. So we're coming across the country. But even for people who are not having to come across the country, it is rare that the prison is, you know, a half an hour from your house or whatever. Like we frequently meet people in the parking lot as you're going out. A lot of times people will chat, once we're all breathing a big sigh of relief, the gate just rolled up behind us, we’re all feeling a little emotional, whatever. And frequently people will ask at that point, “So how far do you have to drive to get home?” You know? And almost everybody it's at least two hours.
F: Right. Back in the boonies, anyway.
S: Yeah. And that's the way it is with so many prisons is they're not close to anybody. So it's hard to get there regularly even if you're not coming from across the country. If you were going to give somebody who was going to go on their first visit, a piece of advice, or two, what would you tell them?
F: Beforehand, and this worked… talk to whoever it is that you're visiting and like, I asked him, “hey tell me movies that you’ve watched?” or something like that… and I'll watch them. And that gives us something to talk about when were there, that's what we do. We watched The Avengers series and Iron Man, or something like that and kind of kooky movies I don't like Watching but I watch them because it would be good for something for us to talk about
S: Cause you do hit weird dead moments in the conversation where nobody can think of anything to say. Yeah.
F: For the first hour you it's you… you talk out, you just blah, blah, blah, blah blah… but then after that… so that's when you start saying, “Okay! I watched that Avengers movie. What do you think?” And then you… one cool thing there is they let you play games, they have games or you can actually bring and just play games while you're visiting.
S: Yeah, they were locked up for over two years. Way after visitation started again, we still couldn't have access to the games and that is… J, and I don't typically play games just because when were there, it's weird because we're doing a mother-son visit and then we're also like having a PrisonCare board meeting at the same time so like we have a million things to talk about.
F: Yeah.
S: But most people in there at some point grab Scrabble or Monopoly or something and they play.
F: But yeah, I would tell them watch a movie that you've both watched or read a book that the inmate has read before that way you discuss, just talk about the books or this or that or bible verses or books in the Bible or something. I don't know anything, that that your, yeah, your family inmate that that's in there that you both can relate to. So… yeah.
S: And then you brought up the dress code thing and that's, that's a big deal. Like, read whatever you can find online for your facility. Look in more than one place. Like, you'll find the d.o.c. dress code. But then look for something that's specific to the actual prison you're going to and like, in our case, we're going to a private Facility, the rules are different. So some of the things that are allowed at d.o.c. are not allowed.
F: That’s correct.
S: Where we go. So, yeah, because that dress code stress is so not worth it. Just wear something that you are absolutely sure you're allowed to wear, rather than wearing something that you like. Because it's a horrible feeling when you come in there and you're just not… So this last time we didn't really think about it but no, no, solid green is one of the rules at our facility and you are a Philadelphia Eagles fan and you had on a Philadelphia Eagles Pullover shirt.
F: It was green.
S: It was green. It was Eagles green, which is not the same as the prison's shade of green that their, that their residents wear but we got there and it was like, ohhh, but it had a black strip across the front it had a black collar and it had the logo.
F: Right… Eagles logo and it had a stripe and she's like, “Oh you’re good, you have the stripe.”
S: The black strip running…
F: It’s not a solid green shirt.
S: But like even with that, even though it ended up not being an issue that oh crap moment where we realize, “ohhh you're wearing a green shirt” and they're like, "it's okay, you have a t-shirt underneath it so if we have to… it's not a white t-shirt, it's a gray T-shirt with a thing on it so it'll be… you can wear that if you have to.” But, it's just that moment of you've got this window of opportunity to visit your person, and that feeling of I might lose that here at the last second over something stupid. So I do it to myself, I… we’ll schedule to get a picture taken while we're there. You have to pay four dollars for the privilege but and we have to schedule it ahead of time. But if we've done that, then I'm thinking in my head, “Okay well, you know, I want to wear something that I like because we're getting a picture taken,” and you know, it's it's better to just wear things that are absolutely safe, even if they're boring or not, particularly attractive, or cute, or fun, or whatever cause yeah, that stress is not worth it.
What's the saying goodbye? Like for you? I know it's different for you than it is for me because, you know, I'm the mama and your, the stepdad.
F: I’m sad for J when I leave but it's different. Like even though I raised him since he was what nine, I guess. It’s still not the, it’s still not the same as when you're his mom. Moms are different than even his real dad or stepdad and anyway, I went through a part when he first got there. I spoke at our church at what it was like… thought that maybe I failed raising him and then when Sabrina got up and was go getting food out of the machines, I talked to J and I said, I said, “Yo, what kind of Father was I to you was I, you know…” He said, “You were good. I’m not blaming you and Mom for anything that happened. That was all on me,” and that made me feel a lot better.
S: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for being willing to share about your experience with other people because it's hard going, especially first-time and wrapping your mind around physically what am I actually going to have to do? What's the process going to be like? But then also having some sense of emotionally, what is this going to be like? You know, I think what you're communicating is what I always feel… It's really mixed.
F: One other thing, I just reminded when they first come to Visit, you got to bring a lot of cash to put on a card. Did you mention that?
S: Well, so that's the way… Yeah, it's, that's in one other episode.
F: Okay.
S: But but, yeah, I'll mention here, but that varies from facility to facility. So apparently, like in Arizona, I have a bunch of people that I'm in contact with in a support group for Arizona and there it's like actual quarters. It's like old-school. Quarters. Which for where we are, there is a machine in the lobby before you come through security and you load up a prepaid vending card with money and then you pop that in the machine. But yeah, apparently that's not the way it is a lot of places. Some some prisons you can bring food from home in, which is amazing to me that that's still a thing. And it's wonderful. And I wish that it was everywhere because it would be so cool to be able to bring a home-cooked meal in and share like real food with them. But yeah. So so again, read the rules for your facility, find out, find out.
But yeah, it is. It's a mixed bag and if you paint it in your mind is that it's going to be this incredibly traumatic brutal awful thing, you’re either never going to get your courage up to go and do it or you're going to go and you're going to make yourself sick ahead of time when you don't need to. It's mixed. There are pieces of it that aren intimidating, there are pieces of it that are sad and there's also things that are just great and fun even. You know, and you gotta let it be mixed and complicated. That’s just how it is.
All right well thanks. Anything else you feel like saying and you want to get your, get your point across? Is PrisonCare driving you crazy?
F: Little bit.
S: So there you go. I hope that that gave you some insight and a little glimpse into what prison visitation can be, like, for different kinds of personalities. So, yeah, hopefully, hearing from him was good for you in your learning process. We are all learning together, right? This is not some easy thing that you could just go and memorize. This is lived experience, and it's coming from so many different perspectives. And that brings me to your lived experience.
I would like to hear your experiences with prison visitation. Whether you have visited a loved one in prison and would like to share about that or whether you haven't and you would like to share the reasons why you haven't. Because I know that there is a very different perspective that we should hear from as well. They're people who choose not to visit and sometimes that's not even the decision of the person on the outside. Sometimes it's the incarcerated person who chooses not to have visits from loved ones on the outside. It's a really complicated issue.
So if you have had any lived experience with prison visitation or if you have worked in Corrections and been connected to visitation through professional connection like that, I would love to hear your stories. I would love to be able to share with our listeners, with other compassionate people who are interested in supporting positive prison culture. I would love to be able to share with them whatever you would be comfortable with us sharing because I think we have a lot to learn from each other. You can always email Sabrina@prisoncare.org. You can leave a comment on any of our social media.
If you are not following us yet, please do. We're on Instagram or very active there. I'm on LinkedIn; both Sabrina Justison and PrisonCare Incorporated. We are on Facebook, we have a page, but we also have a Facebook group that you can join. And we have a little bit on Twitter that's mainly sharing links to articles that we can learn from. But yeah, we would love to connect with you on social media.
And then finally, If you listen to the PrisonCare podcast and like what you're hearing, please share it with other people who might be interested. And if you could take a moment to leave us a review, leave us some stars and a few words that would help other people who are interested in positive prison culture that would help them find the podcast for themselves. I would be very very grateful for that. Thanks for listening and thanks most of all for caring.
Thanks for listening to The PrisonCare Podcast. Be sure to visit us at prisoncare.org. PrisonCare: equipping compassionate people to support positive prison culture from the outside, because everyone on the inside matters.